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Kyle93815



Joined: 26 Apr 2004
Posts: 39
Location: Austin, TX

PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2004 11:33 am    Post subject: Comments Reply with quote

Any plans to allow people to leave comments, with their name, without having to sign up for a reader account?
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john
Site Admin


Joined: 16 Mar 2004
Posts: 3434

PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2004 9:35 am    Post subject: Re: Comments Reply with quote

No plans for that at this time. You can choose to allow Anonymous comments if you wish (which would in theory put you at risk for comment spam) and users could leave their name in the Comment itself. You can edit your article template to add additional instructions or about commenting to your readers.
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bryanska
Guest





PostPosted: Thu Jun 24, 2004 4:34 pm    Post subject: Why not anonymous comments? Reply with quote

I understand anonymous comments would leave us open to comment spam. Are there any plans for a Blacklist-type of plugin?

Yet, as long as we're exposed to it, why can't guests come by and leave comments, without signing in?

John, you mentioned that it just isn't done right now. But why not? I gotta say, this is all that stands between me and a 2nd-level paid account.
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john
Site Admin


Joined: 16 Mar 2004
Posts: 3434

PostPosted: Thu Jun 24, 2004 10:15 pm    Post subject: Re: Why not anonymous comments? Reply with quote

bryanska wrote:
I understand anonymous comments would leave us open to comment spam. Are there any plans for a Blacklist-type of plugin?


For those of you who do not know what Blacklist is: Blacklist is a plug-in for blogs based on the Movable Type software. Blacklist allows blog owners to have comment spam deleted automatically if the spam matches certain rules similar to a spam filter for your email. Blacklist is one of the (if not the) first attempts at creating a means by which blog owners could prevent spammers from placing their unwanted messages into then comment area of weblogs.

Comment spam becomes a problem particularly when the process of commenting on a weblog post can be automated. Weblogs that allow anonymous comments are especially vulnerable to the automated creation of comment spam.

In the latter part of 2003, many Movable Type weblogs were targeted and the issue of comment spam became too big to ignore, as it was affecting thousands of blogs. The spammers created software that was able to detect whether a page was a Movable Type weblog, and on weblogs where no login or authentication was required to comment, it was a simple matter for the spammers to have their software post comments to these weblogs. And to post many thousands of these messages at a time...

The Blacklist plug-in allowed MT users additional protection for their sites, as the plug-in could protect them from many types of spam. The problem of course, is that spam is not always predictable. As you know from dealing with spam in your emailbox, spammers try to stay one step ahead of the filters. So if they find that filters are detecting their message as spam today, then they will create a new message which does not get flagged by your filters tomorrow.

So we turned our initial focus on preventing comment spam by creating a single login system where Readers can identify themselves to the system using a Username and Password, and post comments by logging into the system. The advantage to this approach is that it helps to prevent automated comment spam attacks. Another advantage is that when someone creates a Reader account identity for the sole purpose of comment spamming, it is a simple process for us to remove all of the spam on any blog created by a given username.

Another advantage to the concept is that your Reader account can be used to identify yourself on all blogs in our network, so that you only need one login both to manage a blog you own or to read or be an author or admin on someone else's blog. There are many users in our system who already have a login identity; they will have no problem commenting on your pages using their current login. Further, your users can easily comment on or become subscribers of any other blog in our network using one username/password combination.

Interestingly, Movable Type's creators also have adopted this method of "providing a central identity that anyone can use to log in and post comments on blogs". In their model, they call it TypeKey. While its implementation is different than ours, the purpose is exactly the same: "ensure that people who comment on a site have a verified identity." (These quotes from the TypeKey home page 6/24/2004.)

So that's the long answer. The short answer is No, we don't have a Blacklist-type plugin. Wink You can block comments or disable anonymous reader comments, but we do not offer content based comment filtering at this time.

bryanska wrote:
Yet, as long as we're exposed to it, why can't guests come by and leave comments, without signing in?


Guests can indeed come by and leave comments without signing in if you choose to permit Anonymous comments (see above Wink). This page shows you how to enable or disable anonymous Reader comments. Yes, these posts will be identified as Anonymous as the poster has not verified their identity.

bryanska wrote:
John, you mentioned that it just isn't done right now. But why not? I gotta say, this is all that stands between me and a 2nd-level paid account.


As I noted above, we do offer the ability for your readers to post without signing in if you choose to disable anonymous Reader comments.

We do appreciate your feedback, and do try to listen to our users. This issue is a difficult one: comment spam could potentially ruin the practice of weblogging unless effective preventative measures are put in place. So we are continually trying to balance ease of use on the one hand, and protection and security on the other.

We hope that if this particular aspect of the system does not work exactly as you had hoped, that there are enough other features to keep you here!
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Bryanska
Guest





PostPosted: Thu Jun 24, 2004 10:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The advantage to this approach is that it helps to prevent automated comment spam attacks.


I too struggled with content spam on my MT blog in 2003. Yet it is one price to pay for living without logins. In a day and age when I have to use a login for downloading 'free' game mods, watching 'free' RealPlayer movies, and ordering a shirt (one time!) from Land's End, I like to extend to friends (and random visitors) the courtesy of a login-free experience. My blog is a little oasis of paid-for relaxation. No ads, good templates, solid and fast hosting. I pay the money to treat my friends, many of whom have little Web patience at all. We aren't all slashdots.

Quote:
Another advantage is that when someone creates a Reader account identity for the sole purpose of comment spamming, it is a simple process for us to remove all of the spam on any blog created by a given username.


Ironically, Blacklist does just this - and quicker. Further, it contributes to the anti-spam movement by allowing you to submit new spammers to their database.

Quote:
There are many users in our system who already have a login identity; they will have no problem commenting on your pages using their current login.


I don't give a hoot about other system users. They're not my audience, and my contributions will be skewed if only motivated parties reply. They can comment too, if they like, but I'd rather leave the choice of creating an account up to them.

BlogWare readers might have an interest in doing so, but I am hesitant about asking my friends, and especially my parents, to create yet another Internet account. It's a chore getting these people to visit my site in the first place - how likely are they to contribute now?

Quote:
Guests can indeed come by and leave comments without signing in if you choose to permit Anonymous comments (see above ).


Do you ask your houseguests to provide their Email address? Or do you card friendly folks on the street who want to comment on your dog or coat? If blogs are an open movement, keeping the visitor from identifying herself without ID'ing her first will only encourage her to think twice about commenting. Newbies are weirded out enough when asked to post a comment on the Web.

It's like talking someone into helping you move: a very delicate, leave-it-on-the-table proposition. Why would I ask them to bring their own lunch?

As I look around at different BlogWare sites I see this is common to the software - is any BlogWare company offering any way around it? I like the hosting features, the cost, and the user interface.
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john
Site Admin


Joined: 16 Mar 2004
Posts: 3434

PostPosted: Thu Jun 24, 2004 11:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bryanska - Thanks again for your feedback. It's much appreciated. We do want to make our service better and we are definitely listening.

As for BlogWare sites, yes this commenting system is in use for all Blogware-based services.
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john
Site Admin


Joined: 16 Mar 2004
Posts: 3434

PostPosted: Sat Jun 26, 2004 1:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

One of the things we always say is so great about our system is the ability to modify the templates. Well, I realized last night some time between writing that last message and waking up this morning that there had to be a way to make our system do what Bryanska was looking for...

Well, there is. It's definitely a workaround, but I think this technique will work for many bloggers.

We're going to make changes to the article template and the comments template. This is a slightly more advanced topic, but most of our users should be able to follow along with this. First read this article on modifying your CSS template for a little background on the process of modifying your templates, and if you understand that article you should be able to follow these steps.

What we are going to do is change the comment forms to add 2 additional fields, Name and Email Address. Using Javascript, we are going to automatically include the content of those fields into the comment body when the user submits their comment. This makes it easy for users who have not logged in with a Reader Account to sign their name to their comments. Then we are going to modify the comment output so that the Username or Nickname from the Reader Account no longer appears with each comment, as under this modified style of commenting all of the comments would normally appear attributed to "Anonymous".

Here we go:

  1. Login to your Blog Admin Control Panel through the Login page.

  2. Go to the Settings tab and make sure the "Allow anonymous Reader comments" checkbox on the right is checked. If not, check it and click on Save Settings at the bottom of the page.

  3. Click on the Look and Feel tab, then the Templates subtab.

  4. Now you see a list of the Templates you can customize. We are going to customize the article template, which controls the look of an article when it appears by itself (on its permanent link) and not on a category page, so click Edit in the row that begins with the word article.

  5. Now you'll be on a page listing the current article templates (there will probably be only one). Go all the way to the bottom of the page and click the Customize button.

  6. Almost there: Click the Go button to Copy the Standard template to the staging area. You'll come to the page where you can customize the article template. Sorry it took so long to get here, we will work on making it easier to get to.


Now let's make some changes to the Staging Template Content. Take a look at the very bottom of the textarea, you will see this:

Code:
{{if allow_comments}}
<a name="post_comment"></a>
<div style="margin:25px 0;">
{{include name="post_comment_inline.html"}}
</div>
{{/if}}

</div> <!-- articleAll -->


We're going to modify everything in between the if macros. Delete the lines above and replace them with the following:

Code:
{{if allow_comments}}
<!-- begin modifications to commenting here -->
   {{if allow_html}}   
<script language="JavaScript"><!--
function buildComment() {
   var result = false;
   var theStr = new String(document.comment.commenters_email.value);
   var index = theStr.indexOf("@");

   if (document.comment.commenters_name.value == '')
      document.comment.commenters_name.value = 'Anonymous';

   if (index > 0)
      {
         var pindex = theStr.indexOf(".",index);
         if ((pindex > index+1) && (theStr.length > pindex+1))
         document.comment.body.value =  '<em><a href="mailto:' + document.comment.commenters_email.value + '">' +  document.comment.commenters_name.value + '<\/a> writes:<\/em> <div style="padding: 2px 2px 2px 12px;">' + document.comment.body.value + '<\/div>';
   }
   else {
      document.comment.body.value =  '<em>' + document.comment.commenters_name.value + ' writes:<\/em> <div style="padding: 2px 2px 2px 12px;">' + document.comment.body.value + '<\/div>';
   }

}
//--></script>
{{else}}
<script language="JavaScript"><!--
function buildComment() {

   if (document.comment.commenters_name.value == '')
      document.comment.commenters_name.value = 'Anonymous';


   document.comment.body.value =  document.comment.commenters_name.value + ' writes: ' + document.comment.body.value;
}
//--></script>
{{/if}}

   
   <a name="post_comment"></a>
   <div style="margin:25px 0;">
   
   <div class="commentFormInline">
   
   <form name="comment" method=post action="/blog" onSubmit="buildComment()">
   <input type=hidden name=cmd value="do_post_comment">
   <input type=hidden name=article_id value="{{article_id}}">
   <input type=hidden name=post_anon value="true"> <!-- In this model, everyone is anon -->
   <input type=hidden name=parent_id value="">
   
     <!-- show_comment_login -->
   
   <div style="font-weight:bold;margin-bottom:10px;">Post comment:</div>
   
   <table border="0" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="0">
   
   {{if allow_html}}   
      <!-- if allow html -->
      <tr>
      <td nowrap>Format Type:&nbsp;</td>
      
      <td nowrap>
      <select name=format_type>
      <option selected value="html" onClick="this.form.convert_newlines.disabled=false;"> HTML </option>
      <option  value="text" onClick="this.form.convert_newlines.disabled=true;"> Text </option>
      </select>
      </td>
      </tr><tr>
      <td>&nbsp;</td>
      <td nowrap><input type="checkbox" class="checkbox" name="convert_newlines" value="true" checked > Convert newlines </td></tr>
      <!-- if allow html -->
   {{/if}}
   
   <tr>
   <td align="right" width="5%" nowrap>Subject:&nbsp;</td>
   
   <td nowrap><input type=text name="title" value="Re: {{title}}" size=30 maxlength=255> <span class="error"></span></td>
   </tr>
   
   
   <tr>
   <td align="right" width="5%" nowrap>Name:&nbsp;</td>
   
   <td nowrap><input type=text name="commenters_name" value="" size=30 maxlength=255> <span class="error"></span></td>
   </tr>
   
   <tr>
   <td align="right" width="5%" nowrap>Email Address:&nbsp;</td>
   
   <td nowrap><input type=text name="commenters_email" value="" size=30 maxlength=255> <span class="error"></span></td>
   </tr>
   

   {{if allow_html}}   
   <!-- edit buttons -->
      <tr>
      <td>&nbsp;</td>
      <td align="left" valign="bottom">&nbsp;
      <div id="_buttons" style="display:inline;">
      
      <div class="editButtons">
      <img onclick="wrapSelection(document.comment.body,'<strong>','</strong>');" src="/_images/edit_bold.gif" width="23" height="22" alt="insert bold tags" title="insert bold tags" onmouseover="this.className='editButtonOn';" onmouseout="this.className='editButtonOff';" onmousedown="this.className='editButtonDown';" onmouseup="this.className='editButtonOff';" class="editButtonOff">
      
      <img onclick="wrapSelection(document.comment.body,'<em>','</em>');" src="/_images/edit_italic.gif" width="23" height="22" alt="insert italic tags" title="insert italic tags"  onmouseover="this.className='editButtonOn';" onmouseout="this.className='editButtonOff';" onmousedown="this.className='editButtonDown';" onmouseup="this.className='editButtonOff';" class="editButtonOff">
      
      <img onclick="wrapSelection(document.comment.body,'<u>','</u>');" src="/_images/edit_underline.gif" width="23" height="21" alt="insert italic tags" title="insert italic tags"  onmouseover="this.className='editButtonOn';" onmouseout="this.className='editButtonOff';" onmousedown="this.className='editButtonDown';" onmouseup="this.className='editButtonOff';" class="editButtonOff">
      
      <img onclick="wrapSelection(document.comment.body,'<strike>','</strike>');" src="/_images/edit_strike.gif" width="20" height="20" alt="insert strikethough tags" title="insert strikethough tags"  onmouseover="this.className='editButtonOn';" onmouseout="this.className='editButtonOff';" onmousedown="this.className='editButtonDown';" onmouseup="this.className='editButtonOff';" class="editButtonOff">
      
      <img onclick="wrapSelectionWithLink(document.comment.body);" src="/_images/edit_link.gif" width="20" height="20" alt="insert link" title="insert link"  onmouseover="this.className='editButtonOn';" onmouseout="this.className='editButtonOff';" onmousedown="this.className='editButtonDown';" onmouseup="this.className='editButtonOff';" class="editButtonOff">
      
      <img onclick="wrapSelection(document.comment.body,'<blockquote>','</blockquote>');" src="/_images/edit_indent.gif" width="20" height="20" alt="insert blockquote tags" title="insert blockquote tags"  onmouseover="this.className='editButtonOn';" onmouseout="this.className='editButtonOff';" onmousedown="this.className='editButtonDown';" onmouseup="this.className='editButtonOff';" class="editButtonOff">
      </div>  <!-- editButtons -->
      
      </div> <!-- _buttons -->
      
      <script language="javascript" type="text/javascript">
      var ua = navigator.userAgent.toLowerCase();
      if (ua.indexOf('safari') != -1) {
         document.getElementById('_buttons').style.display = 'none';
      }
      </script>
      </td>
      </tr>
   <!-- end buttons -->
   {{/if}}
   
   
   <tr>
      <td align="right" width="5%" valign="top" nowrap>Comment:&nbsp;</td>
      <td valign="top"><textarea name="body" style="width:100%;height:100px;max-width:400px;" wrap=soft></textarea><br>
      <span class="error"></span></td>
   </tr>
   
   <tr>
      <td>&nbsp;</td>
      <td nowrap>
<!--    <input type=submit class="button" name="preview_comment" value="Preview">&nbsp; -->
      <input type=submit class="button" value="Post Comment">
      </td>
   </tr>
   
   </table>
   </form>
   </div> <!-- commentForm -->
   
   
   </div>
   
   <!-- end modifications to commenting here -->
{{/if}}

</div> <!-- articleAll -->


Click on the Save and Activate button. OK, now we're done. Your blog has a new trick, allowing readers who have not logged in (who we usually would refer to as Anonymous had they posted a comment) the option to sign their name and leave their email address.

We just need to modify the comments template now to remove the username or nickname from appearing on comments that are posted. Follow the steps above but this time we're going to modify the comments template.

Let's replace the entiere contents of the comments template with the following:

Code:
<div class="comments">

{{if comments}}
{{loop comments}}
<a name="{{marker}}"></a>
<div class="comment">
<div class="commentIndent{{depth}}">
<div class="commentTitle">{{title}}</div>
<div class="commentAuthor">{{publish_time.hour}}:{{publish_time.min}}{{publish_time.ampm}} ({{publish_time.zone}}) on {{publish_time.month_name_short}} {{publish_time.day}}, {{publish_time.year}} &nbsp;|&nbsp; <a href="#{{marker}}">Permanent Link</a></div>
<div class="commentBody">{{body}}</div>
</div> <!-- commentIndentn -->
</div> <!-- comment -->
{{/loop}}

{{else}}
{{if allow_comments}}
No comments found.
{{/if}} <!-- allow_comments -->
{{/if}} <!-- comments -->

</div> <!-- comments -->


Click on the Save and Activate button.

That should do it... This should provide the basic functionality for your users to sign their names to their comments without logging in. You'll have to enable anonymous commenting to use this technique, but that was the trade off.

There may be some errors in this technique, please let me know if you find any. Consider this a first draft at how to accomplish the objective. There are sure to be a few things we can polish up. Some folks may wish to modify the style of the comments, or make changes to the Javascript we created to add additional information.

Very eager to hear your feedback!

Updated 8/24/04 - Made a correction so that the subject of the comment is properly created.


Last edited by john on Tue Aug 24, 2004 7:49 am; edited 1 time in total
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john
Site Admin


Joined: 16 Mar 2004
Posts: 3434

PostPosted: Tue Jun 29, 2004 10:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You can also edit the photo template to use this form of commenting. Articles and photo album entries have their own templates, so you need to edit them both.

The photo template ends with the following:

Code:
{{if allow_comments}}
<a name="post_comment"></a>
<div style="margin:25px 0;">
{{include name="post_comment_inline.html"}}
</div>
{{/if}}

</div>  <!-- photoAll -->


Just swap this out with the same big block of replacement code above we used to update the article template and your photo album entries can use the same style of "semi-anonymous" commenting.

Also, just wanted to point out that this workaround (polite way of saying hack in the traditional meaning of hack) works differently depending on whether or not you are allowing HTML in your comments (configured via the Settings tab in your blog admin control panel). If you allow HTML, your readers will see the HTML toolbar, of course, and your comments will be displayed with a little jazzier formatting: for example, the commenter's name will be linked to their email address if supplied.
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abacquer



Joined: 22 Mar 2004
Posts: 193

PostPosted: Thu Jul 01, 2004 12:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

john wrote:
abacquer wrote:
john wrote:
abacquer ... I know you asked how to do this once before...


Thanks John. Yeah I saw the other post about allowing Anonymous users to leave a name and e-mail. It's an impressive workaround, and a little scary. ... I'm not sure I want to do this though, at least not in this way. You used the word "hack" yourself, and I'm iffy about using it.


Hack was used in the correct, good and original sense of the word. Progammers say to each other, nice hack.


I've been a professional software engineer for about 14 years now. Where I come from "hack" is synonymous with "gross", and the developers I work with rarely use the word "nice" in conjunction with the word "hack".

Which is not to belittle your accomplishment in coming up with a solution which gives the outward appearance of associating a name with a comment. It is very impressive, and I commend your ingenuity. But it is truly only an outward appearance. No name is actually associated with the comment, and if for example I wanted to show commenter names in my "Recent Comments" component, they would all show up as anonymous because no real name information is being stored. If BlogWare ever decided to offer the ability to create RSS feeds for comments, the fields set aside for the commenter's identity would be empty. If I wanted to export my blog information, the export data would not include a commenter's name in the appropriate field.

In the database world we would call this "domain pollution". That is using one domain to store information that belongs in another domain--in this case the "comment-body" field is doing double-duty.

To be truly accomodating, BlogWare would need to modify the database to store a "guest username", "guest e-mail", and "guest URL". Furthermore, it should (like MT), offer right on the submit comment form a checkbox to have the 'guest' information saved in a cookie, so that the next time a reader showed up to comment, his guest identity would be remembered. No login required. No retyping of the reader's name every time required either.

john wrote:
It's no more or less dangerous than allowing Anonymous comments.


I disagree, for reasons already stated. Allowing anonymous comments does not inherently pollute the data stored in my blog. And there are further gotchas...

For example, I've been maintaining a blog on BlogHarbor for 4 months now and have accrued 185 comments. Many are anonymous, but a chunk of them are not, having been left by those readers who went through the trouble of making a reader account.

Were I to employ this workaround, unless I'm reading the modified staging template incorrectly, all previously extant comments left by those who had created reader accounts would appear with no username attributed to them. As far as I know there's no simple way to fix them, because BlogHarbor doesn't appear to allow me to edit comments.

All that aside, you've come up with a great workaround... quite ingenious really. I certainly couldn't have figured that out. I'm sure it will be of use to many BlogHarbor bloggers.
_________________
-- Abacquer, A.K.A. Chuck Seggelin
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john
Site Admin


Joined: 16 Mar 2004
Posts: 3434

PostPosted: Thu Jul 01, 2004 1:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

All I really meant wrt to hack was that I was not using the term as in I hacked your computer. I will leave the comedy to the professionals next time.

As for all of the other stuff you eloquently stated, yes, exactly. You are correct on all of your points. This workaround/hack/mod thing is just a means to allow people who are not satisfied with the way the software operates.

Yes, it is indeed only the outward appearance of a signed anonymous comment. The Blogware system considers you Anonymous unless you authenticate. Period. Although I consider this obvious, and this concept will in the long run prove its validity, some users are looking for additional flexibility with commenting, and I understand that.This mod - let's use that term instead - gives them that flexibility to at least have this outward appearance.

Is there domain pollution? Absolutely. But the fact is, the Blogware platform will not be changing anytime soon in order to allow this kind of simple, signed anonymous commenting. So we are offering it out there if you want to try it.

One thing though, it is quite possible to leave the usernames listed on comments where they are attached. This was originally intended for a new blog, but the following would probably be a better mod for the comments template:

Code:
<div class="comments">

{{if comments}}
{{loop comments}}
<a name="{{marker}}"></a>
<div class="comment">
<div class="commentIndent{{depth}}">
<div class="commentTitle">{{title}}</div>
<div class="commentAuthor">
{{if author}}
    by <a href="javascript:openWindow('{{view_user_url}}', 'info', 450, 600);">{{var name=author escape=html}}</a> at
{{/if}}
{{publish_time.hour}}:{{publish_time.min}}{{publish_time.ampm}} ({{publish_time.zone}}) on {{publish_time.month_name_short}} {{publish_time.day}}, {{publish_time.year}} &nbsp;|&nbsp; <a href="#{{marker}}">Permanent Link</a></div>
<div class="commentBody">{{body}}</div>
{{if allow_comments}}
<div class="commentReply"><a href="{{post_reply_url}}">Reply</a></div>
{{/if}}
</div> <!-- commentIndentn -->
</div> <!-- comment -->
{{/loop}}

{{else}}
{{if allow_comments}}
No comments found.
{{/if}} <!-- allow_comments -->
{{/if}} <!-- comments -->

</div> <!-- comments -->


Try that one, that should work better for comments which were posted by authenticated users.

Thanks again for your excellent comments and insightful analysis.
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john
Site Admin


Joined: 16 Mar 2004
Posts: 3434

PostPosted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 9:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Please note we've had to alter the anonymous comments form slightly, in order to trip up the comment spammers that attacked us last week.

If you've implemented the workaround described earlier in this thread, you may find that your workaround no longer works around.

Please contact us if that's the case, and we'll see if we can provide you with a workaround to the workaround...

It's probably not a good idea to use this technique for the time being as our anonymous commenting system will be undergoing some revisions in order to protect you from automated attacks.
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